Wikimedia Foundation/Comitê de Capítulos/2010.02.17 IRC
Introdução e apresentações[editar]
- Wednesday February 17 2010, 13:04 -
aie-meeting: hey everybody
solstag: alô alô! =D
aie-meeting: I think damian was trying to join us too, but for the rest we are complete?
aie-meeting: I am effeietsanders / Lodewijk for the record
aie-meeting: delphine: could you perhaps log this meeting?
delphine: hmmm, nope, I can't work my chat client
aie-meeting: Austin: ? you maybe?
solstag: I think my client should be logging it
Austin: Sure, I can log
aie-meeting: what would be best, public log or private?
aie-meeting: thanks, Austin
aie-meeting: I would have no problems with public log
solstag: neither would I
aie-meeting: so if there is no objection, I propose to keep it public and publish it somewhere on meta?
everton137: aie-meeting, aie-meeting public
aie-meeting: just as an intro, this meeting is because the chapters committee and the board are a little confused over the current status of WMBR. The information we have is outdated, so we hope to get more up to date info this way, to be able to get a good focus on the situatio
everton137: ok, where do we start?
aie-meeting: that way we can get a good view of what is going on, what you guys need/want and what is possible
- 13:09 -
aie-meeting: maybe it would be helpful to just shortly say for everybody who he/she is, what the position is?
aie-meeting: I am Lodewijk, member of the chapters committee since this summer.
delphine: I am Delphine member of the chapters commitee since for ever
Austin: I'm Austin, but otherwise what Delphine said.
solstag: I am Ale, volunteer for Wikimedia Brazil since 2008, some will recognize me from chapters meeting and wikimania as "the beard-guy"
TSB_: I'm Thomas, Wikimedia volunteer in Brazil
everton137: I'm Everton, ask Tom, I've been volunteering for Wikimedia Brazil since the beginning of 2008
aie-meeting: solstag, TSB_ and everton137 : do you have a specific position in the group?
Austin: Thanks for pointing out that you're the beard guy, solstag; it's a helpful reference.
TSB_: Can we start by asking how do each of you from Chapcom understands the Brazilian chapter situation?
solstag: everton137: I guess by "ask Tom" you mean "aka Tom"
everton137: solstag, I pointed my error
solstag: everton137: and I think you're around since early 2009, not 2008, but that's irrelevant hehe
solstag: about specific positions...
everton137: I would ask the same thing as TSB_ and what are your understanding that makes our situation confuse
aie-meeting: everton137: I will get to that
solstag: ...we're positioned to attend this meeting and report back to everyone, mostly because we've been more involved with WMF related issues
- 13:15 -
solstag: however, we happen to be some of the more active people in the chapter
aie-meeting: about what the confusion is about... when the group was proposed to be approved to the WMF board, there was a specific mention of the bylaws. The bylaws specifically state a legal entity. As I understand it, this entity never was founded, therefore putting the approval in a grey area.
TSB_: I want to point out that there are a few other vert active people, but not everybody was available today, as it is the last day of Carnaval in Brazil
aie-meeting: of course we are aware of this situation already for a while, but we have never been able to clear up this situation, and as of today, there seem to be some unclearities
everton137: (TSB_ I just came back from carnival last night, hehe )
solstag: TSB_: yes! haha although Carnival officially ends at 12h (yes, right in the middle of the day)
Quem é o capítulo?[editar]
aie-meeting: but to begin with, could you perhaps summarize "who" are currently the people behind the group Wikimedia Brasil ?
TSB_: solstag and I tried to explain our situation to all other chapters attending the Chapters conference in Berlin in 2008.
solstag: aie-meeting: so we could start with some questions, or by telling a little of the situation over here
aie-meeting: TSB_: I know, I was there. But lets try to start a little from the beginning to avoid confusions
delphine: What's interesting here is who as in "name+prior ties with Wikim/pedia+other relevant background"
aie-meeting: delphine: indeed
- 13:20 -
solstag: ok... let's do it like this, I'll fire a name and everton137 and then we all tell about that person, ok?
solstag: ok... let's do it like this, I'll fire a name and then we all tell about that person, ok?
aie-meeting: solstag: I dont think we need to have a full list right here, but is there a list online somewhere?
everton137: solstag is still confuse with type "ask Tom", haha
aie-meeting: and could you indicate a rough sketch of their backgrounds first? If necessary, we can go into detail after that
solstag: hum... there no "list of everybody", there are lists tied to specific activities, and some people participate but don't care to be listed at all, but you can check who's been editing br.wikimedia.org
TSB_: It's important to mention that we have a very active mailing-list, where wikipedians and other wikimedia volunteers openly discuss all of the chapters projects (we call them mutirões)
everton137: aie-meeting, here we have a list of people who had show interested in participating http://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Lista_de_participantes but what I can say only a few are concerned with the chapter issues
aie-meeting: how do you mean?
solstag: aie-meeting: how who means what?
TSB_: Most participants are focused on activities, rather than bureaucracy.
aie-meeting: how does everton137 mean "only a few are concerned..."
solstag: TSB_: that's unfair...
everton137: aie-meeting, I think TSB_ answered that
- 13:25 -
solstag: aie-meeting: the list he linked to is enormous
solstag: aie-meeting: it's just people who signed up there to say there are potentially interested, its not to be taken as a list of effective participants
delphine: can we cut this short? This is probably not going anywhere
everton137: solstag is right
delphine: I propose the following
delphine: can you give us a quick review of what _kind_ of people are involved in the _chapter_
solstag: I was going to propose that I make a general description of how I personally see some people are involved in terms of backgrounds you'd understand.
solstag: delphine: oky!
delphine: Question number 1: how many (roughly) core wikimedians?
delphine: solstag, yeah, that's what I want, a "general background"
delphine: question 2) how many "other" people
delphine: question 3) general background (prior involvemments etc.)
aie-meeting: core wikimedians as in: editing the wikimedia projects a lot
aie-meeting: (wikipedia etc)
solstag: So there are some heavy WM Project editors (who have high edit counts, have been administrators, etc.) involved: Pietro, João, Fabio, Rodrigo. Some of these come and go like "OS2Warp", Beria (moved to portugal), Lucas, and others...
- 13:31 -
TSB_: One of our last mutirões was a simple scan of Wikipedians that are following the discussions on the Brazilian chapter mailing-list. Their profile is in Portuguese, but one could notice that more than 15 people (core wikipedians) joined this amutirão.
everton137: solstag, TSB_ I just checked some stats from our mailing list and we can see around one dozen is very active there. You all can check it here http://groups.google.com/group/wikimediabr-l/about (our mailing list is also being archived on google gourps)
TSB_: This was a virtual activity, focused only on core wikipedians.
solstag: Oh and I forgot Sir Lestaty, of course.
solstag: So, these are, as I remember now, the "core wikimedians" that are actively involved in the chapter.
solstag: Through them we can mobilize a number of other, passive, core wikimedians, most easily the "come and go" ones.
TSB_: There was another activity related to the Strategy Wiki, a real unconference, where a number of core wikipedians were present. solstag do you remember how many in total?
aie-meeting: ok, so the number of active wikipedians is below 10?
aie-meeting: TSB_: the question was about the number of core wikimedians active in the _chapter_
aie-meeting: not present on activities
solstag: aie-meeting: its above 10 if you count on all projects
aie-meeting: solstag: but not much?
solstag: aie-meeting: and I was concerned with people who were active before getting involved with the chapter
aie-meeting: just as a background, how many of you three are for example core wikimedians?
- 13:36 -
solstag: aie-meeting: yes, actively involved is not much higher than 10, which unfortunately IS a good percentage off all core wikimedians in brazil (which from what I remember are less than 100)
TSB_: I'm not a core wikipedian, but I do consider myself a core wikimedian.
aie-meeting: TSB_: on which projects are you active?
TSB_: Wikimania, StrategyWiki and Meta
everton137: aie-meeting, I'm more involved with Wikipedia and Commons
everton137: you can add meta and br.wikimedia. I can explain my participation on these projects, if you want
solstag: aie-meeting: I personally am not in the "core" of any project, but I have been a casual contributor since about 2005, and am becoming very active on wikiversity.
aie-meeting: with core wikimedian, we were referring mainly to the content-projects
aie-meeting: but clear, thanks
aie-meeting: could you explain in a few lines the structure of your group?
aie-meeting: or wait
aie-meeting: question 2/3 of delphine was still open
aie-meeting: who are the "other
aie-meeting: '" people
solstag: yes : )
solstag: about that
solstag: and actually about the three of us here
- 13:41 -
solstag: most people who were not initially involved with the content projects were drawn because they were "core" in other commons-collaborative, and frequently wiki based, activities
TSB_: A good example for that is the number of new volunteers to the mutirão of Open Education Resources.
aie-meeting: a mutirao is a working group?
solstag: that would be Thomas (commons collaboration in enterprises), me and Tom (commons collaboration in academia, education and politics), some people from Open Educational Resources initatives, etc...
everton137: and maybe you all would be interested on these other 'commons-collaborative' projects we were/are involved. just ask, if you do
aie-meeting: so would it be right to summarize the "other" people are from other open content projects?
aie-meeting: outside wikimedia that is
solstag: aie-meeting: yep
aie-meeting: or is there also a large open source developers community?
TSB_: Unfortunately there is not.
TSB_: Or not yet, but we keep trying to reach them out
aie-meeting: delphine: did that answer the question?
solstag: Oh and I totally forgot lugusto when mentioning core-wm-content contributors...
solstag: aie-meeting: actually some people are also FLOSS developers... like Tom and me nad lugusto and others...
aie-meeting: ok, and roughly how many of those are active?
TSB_: If we understood the wikimedia movement with less boundaries, I'm sure we would have a greater impact in any other country right now.
- 13:46 -
solstag: aie-meeting: and there are some people involved who are mostly open source developers, like Pitanga and Diego
everton137: yes, I can add this open educational resources (= OER) mutirão as an example. Carolina Rossini, a Brazilian PhD student from Harvard, just ask my help for creating a toolkit for Brazil on OER. I was helping her with cclearn wiki and now we are using our br.wikimedia for organizing this toolking advocating OER.
aie-meeting: (of the people with other open content project backgrounds)
everton137: lugusto = user:555
delphine: it answers the question.
Organização do capítulo brasileiro[editar]
delphine: My next question is the following: Can you, in let's say three sentences MAX, summarize _why_ there cannot be a Wikimedia Brazil _organisation_?
solstag: and there is Danilo.mac which I think is also quite active on wikipedia, and Nevinho, and rautopia, which are not as active as the ones I mentioned first, but do work a lot on the content projects
TSB_: When creating the bylaws we realized that an open movement with autonomous volunteers would do a greater service to Wikimedia in Brazil, as more people would feel invited to join a non hierarchical movement with autonomy to create and replicate mutirões throughiout the richest and pooorest regions of Brazil.
- 13:51 -
aie-meeting: is there currently any ongoing discussion about setting up a legal entity?
TSB_: The most important thing for our chapter to be successful is not the amount of money we could raise, but the number of activities we would be able to create and replicate with the support of volunteers committed to the free knowledge movement.
delphine: then why don't we just have that? ie. "an association called "Open Automnomous Movement around Wiki projects"?
delphine: a "loose bunch of volunteer"
delphine: called that
solstag: aie-meeting: summarizing the numbers, I'd say, but that's my personal instantaneous recollection, about 20 people who came because they were already editing WM content projects very frequently (even if not in the "core" of thousands-of-edits people), plus another 20 to 40 people who were collaborating on commons outside Wikimedia, and are being brought inside by chapters activities, while I cannot precise this second number as parti
solstag: cipation is "mutirão-oriented". So about 50 people actively involved one way or another. But remember I'm counting all levels of involvement here.
delphine: I am sorry, but I cannot undertand why you call that "our chapter". You are telling me you guys don't want a chapter (a chapter is something rather clearly defined as far as I am aware), which I totally respect.
TSB_: delphine: why, if this "loose bunch of volunteers" are doing the same activities as a chapter?
solstag: aie-meeting: no, there is no ongoing discussion
delphine: because there is a definition of what a chapter is
delphine: that's all.
delphine: The same way a carrot is not ana pple
delphine: or Microsoft is not Apple for that matter
TSB_: do you all from chapter committee see the same way as delphine ?
aie-meeting: TSB_: I think this is a discussion, and we try to get some answers
solstag: delphine: guess the problem is that a chapter is defined twice: first, it is whatever is responsible to promote and be a contact point for wikimedia regionally, second it is a legal entity that does that; we consider ourselves a chapter in the first sense.
aie-meeting: delphines question comes down to: why do you want to be a "chapter" as it is defined in Wikimedia
TSB_: ok, if that is the case, we call ourselves a chpater because we may have a different "color", but we all have the same mission and share the same vision.
- 13:56 -
delphine: I am not sure you can't leave half of the definition out because it suits us better
* delphine would love to be a French citizen and vote in Germany
delphine: but hey, I can't
delphine: same thing
solstag: delphine: and I am not sure you can force half of the definition in because it suits us better
aie-meeting: solstag: do I summarize well that you want to be the responsible in Brazil to do chapter things but you dont want to be a legal entity?
delphine: there are rules, you need to accept them
TSB_: as one member of the wikimedia board said "we can always wiki the concept of chapters", can't we?
solstag: aie-meeting: yes, and we are trying hard to create an environment and procedures that allows us to do that
everton137: delphine, what is the main aim of a local chapter?
delphine: TSB_: if that was so easy, we'd have done it a long time ago. My experience is that "an organisation is _not_ a wiki"
TSB_: everton137: that's a great question!
delphine: if Wikimedia France botches the use of the WIkimedia trademarks and decides to sell missiles, WMF can sue Wikimedia France.
delphine: They are responsible
delphine: if a "loose entity" does that in Brazil, WMF can't '
TSB_: delphine or someone else, could you please answer to everton137 question?
delphine: everton137: you can't define a chapter _just_ by its aim. Otherwise, I probably could be a chapter all by myself. As a volunteer, I give myself the same goals and mission the WMFoundation has, for example.
everton137: I believe comparisions to Operational systems and citizenship from countries is not proper in the context we are discussing
solstag: delphine: well, I can only say that our experience is that an organization can be a wiki and it's awesome, so why not?
aie-meeting: ok, a question: what do you _want/need_ as a group?
aie-meeting: what do you expect
- 14:01 -
aie-meeting: usage of the trademarks?
delphine: yes, what are your expectations as a non-organisation that would be a chapter?
solstag: delphine: Why would WM want to sue a "bunch of loose people" who control no funds and have no right to act on behalf of WM if they decide to sell missiles?
TSB_: Learn and share experiences with mission-related groups, i.e. other chapers.
aie-meeting: ie: why is it that you want the tag "chapter" ?
TSB_: By being a chapter, we'd share an accepted identity and this is a very strong step toward mobilizong more volunteers.
TSB_: *sorry all the typos
aie-meeting: what do you mean with "identity" ?
solstag: aie-meeting: I think the important point is for people and institutions to recognize us as a channel through which they learn of and work with the WM Movement in Brazil
TSB_: solstag: you gave a great example of the importance of this chapters identity.
everton137: aie-meeting, to use a proper license (e. g., CC-BY or CC-By-SA) is an example of an identity with WM projects
aie-meeting: but anyone could do that, right?
aie-meeting: you dont need any approval for using a license
- 14:06 -
solstag: everton137: I think the license bit is not a good point. rs
everton137: sometimes it's very difficult to make a university professor to use wiki-tools, but it's easiear to convince him to produce his texts with a license compatible with WMF project, which could make this content possible to use
solstag: aie-meeting: and when I say "people and institutions" I include the foundation and other chapters in that.
TSB_: But I think the right question is: why can't the chapter committe accept that chapters could have different organizational structures and still achieve the same mission?
Austin: We do acknowledge that.
Austin: But what you're proposing is not a thing.
TSB_: Austin: an open movement is certainly somthing, isn't it?
aie-meeting: TSB_: I am trying to find out whether the "chapter" tag is actuall what you are looking for
aie-meeting: mind you that there is no limitation on the number of tags we can invent
Austin: TSB: it's something, just like free love or world peace, it's just not something we can interact with as a chapter.
TSB_: And I'm trying to understand why some of you have such a great problem with our structure. Do you have anything to share with us?
Austin: That's the crux of the problem.
TSB_: Austin: why not?
TSB_: Did't we select representatives to go to the chapters meeting las year?
delphine: TSB_: the problem I have with your structure... is... well, there's not strucutre
Austin: Because everything that makes a chapter a chapter involves cooperation between two actual organization.
aie-meeting: TSB_: the structure is not the problem I think, the crux is where you try to push one structure into a model of different structures
Austin: We definitely want you to be able to do what you want to do.
solstag: Do people and institutions recognize WM Chapters from their internal affairs, or from them being a channel through which they learn of and work with the WM Movement regionally?
solstag: If it is the second, then I believe it's the right tag.
Austin: We're just confused about why you want the "chapter" name.
delphine: my summary would be: Volunteers in Brazil want 1) to be "taken seriously" in their "Wikimedia related work" 2) have access to discussions with Wikimedia organisations (chapters meeting, Wikimania etc.)
- 14:12 -
TSB_: By "taken seriously", you should correct to "by being respected, especially by people like you", despite of their different organizational structure.
Austin: What structure?
Austin: Sorry, TSB, but that's what's at issue here.
solstag: delphine: I think that's a good summary and now we are left witht the tag thing to sort out.
TSB_: an open movement is a structure, a non hierarchical structure with task-assigned autonomous volunteers.
solstag: Austin: a wiki is very much a structure, and principles to be followed too, we're jut not relying on the State to enforce that structure.
bastique: Ah have I missed the excitement?
everton137: aie-meeting, let me give you an example. I proposed to make a table asking each artist/professor/musician etc.. for see their position (a political one?) about using licenses compatible with WM projects. When contacting such people, wouldn't be proper to exaplain in term of a *group* support free content, instead of an individual?
solstag: Austin: because we're not relying on the State, we keep property right outside our structure.
delphine: yo bastique
bastique: heya delphine
solstag: bastique: ooh noes, you missed some of it, but it's logged don't worry and there's lots more to come rsrs
aie-meeting: everton137: hmm, that sounds like a wikipod to me
aie-meeting: not sure if you heard about that?
everton137: aie-meeting, wikipod?
aie-meeting: apparently not
aie-meeting: it is an initiative of Frank Schulenburg to enable more groups of wikimedians to "do stuff" without the need to be a chapter
aie-meeting: for more open groups
solstag: everton137: don't mix activities with organization Tom.
solstag: aie-meeting: we've heard about wikipods, but a wikipod is not recognized as a channel through which people and institutions can learn of and work with the WM Movement regionally, they're just what we've been calling "mutirões" since 2008
- 14:18 -
aie-meeting: ok, can you maybe define then "learn of and work with the WM Movement regionally" a bit better?
TSB_: That's a grea way to describe what we have being doing, solstag
aie-meeting: because it seems that might be a core
solstag: You see, the tag "Chapter" has two meanings, one internal to WMF and one external.
solstag: We want to have exactly the same external meaning but a different internal meaning.
solstag: Now the question is, do we think the movement as a whole grows stronger if we are internally flexible or if we force the outside to learn a different name for what, in the essence, for them will be the same thing?
solstag: aie-meeting: I'll define in an example what I mean by "learn of and work with the WM Movement"
TSB_: The Brazilian chapter, with its mailing-list and wikipage, is the central hub for a number of local wikipods/mutirões.
TSB_: And that's really important to create a strong cohesive movement. Don't you think so?
delphine: tehre is no Brazilian Chapter
- 14:23 -
everton137: aie-meeting, just quick read about wikipod, interesting. But on the answer diferentiating a wikipod from a chapter, I noticed one thing would be good for our activities: developing a partnership with a cultural institution.
delphine: a partnership means you have a partner
delphine: who would be the partner, if ther eis no "entity" to talk to?
solstag: Let's say I own a school/museum/culture center and I want to get a better understanding of how I can incorporate free knowledge and collaboration in my institution. I wanna talk to somebody who has experience and capability in that kind of thing. So I can either go to wikipedia and try to talk to some wikipedians who are not at all organized to do that and probably live far away from where I am, or I can reach out to "The Chapter",
solstag: no matter where in Brazil (or any other country) I am, which is the recognized place where lots of people are interested in helping me with exactly that: promoting, teaching and porting the movement and its ideals to different settings.
aie-meeting: solstag: so you want responsibility, but no definition who exactly is the responsible, who are involved and no way to show the rest of the wikimedia movement whether you are trustworthy?
aie-meeting: If you take a position like that, it sounds like you present yourself to those institutions as a legal entity
aie-meeting: because after all, they dont want to talk to loosely organized structures
everton137: the same example solstag gave can be applied to cases where journalists contacted our chapter and our organization collaboratively answered and explained to them understanding better what WMF foundation projects are about
solstag: aie-meeting: we have full transparency in the wiki and mailing list, we are 100% accessible, we don't deal directly with property, and we're guided by our statement of principles; pretty much like all the content projects, which carry much higher responsibilities I must say.
delphine: aie-meeting: and if they do want to talk to loosely organized strcutures, then they should without any problem alk to "volunteers in movement for Wiki projects"
- 14:29 -
delphine: *talk to
solstag: aie-meeting: well in some points you'll just have to believe our experience, because every institution we've been dealing with has been perfectly aware that they're not talking to a legal entity, and perfectly fine with that.
TSB_: And we talked to small and very big organizations.
solstag: delphine: I guess my last message was also in reply to you
delphine: solstag: then why do you need to be a chapter? Since a chapter _is_ a legal entity?
aie-meeting: OK, I think we are repeating ourselves here, maybe we should wrap up.
aie-meeting: I do have some questions left though, but they are better answered by email I think
delphine: agreed, I need to go
aie-meeting: so I will ask them here, and then you can follow up by email
solstag: delphine: I think I explained it when I sorted the "Chapter" tag as both an internal and external thing, and posed the question at large, right?
Comitê pede um documento[editar]
aie-meeting: 1) Could you maybe make a list of the most active people in your group, and indicate who are active on the wikimedia content-projects (with username)
TSB_: We are making here a very important statement to the whole wikimedia movement. A chapter should not be defined by its structure, but by its purpose and activities.
aie-meeting: 2) could you summarize the activities of the past 6 months, and the organizations you contacted with the results?
aie-meeting: 2b) the planned activities
- 14:34 -
aie-meeting: delphine: , Austin , bastique any questions left?
solstag: about 2), we've been working on our chapter report
delphine: Can you draw up a clear and comprehensive lists of:
delphine: 1) ther easzons why you _do not want_ or _cannot_ be a legal entity
bastique: I'm good. I was wondering about activity level of active Wikimedians in the chapter activiites.
TSB_: Sure. We can do that collaboratively in Portuguese. Can you find a way to translate it into English?
delphine: 1) the reasons why you _do not want_ or _cannot_ be a legal entity
bastique: People who are fairly well known on the projects.
bastique: or has this been asked before?
delphine: 2) draw a clear diagram of responsibiloity structure _if_ the "Brazilan volunteers withotu an organisation_ were ever to be recognized as a chapter
delphine: ie. rights./obligations, persons rsponsible etc.
delphine: 2) draw a clear diagram of responsibility structure _if_ the "Brazilan volunteers without an organisation_ were ever to be recognized as a chapter (w/o typos)
delphine: Frankly, for me, the list of who is involved is irrelevant
delphine: I have no doubt you guys mean well, but I do not understand what you want, even after an hour of discussing
Austin: I have to second what Delphine just said.
TSB_: I may ask you to try to open up a little to "listen" to what we have been saying.
delphine: I am listening
delphine: I am not understanding
everton137: I believe all questions made are important and we are going to answer them. Should we send the answers to WMF general list?
Austin: I think we all have a solid grasp of what you're asking for, TSB, we just don't know *why*
delphine: you could put them on meta
- 14:39 -
delphine: and send an email at chapcom for review
everton137: delphine, yes, I meant where to send the link on meta?
everton137: oh, ok
TSB_: Austin: To share a common identity with the rest of the movement, but without having to do things that are considered unnecessary locally.
aie-meeting: ok, we dont need to repeat that discussion here and now
aie-meeting: I will close down this meeting then
aie-meeting: Austin: you will publish the minutes?
aie-meeting: ok thanks for being here all
aie-meeting: it has been helpful
aie-meeting: at least to me
everton137: ok, nice to talk to you all. I hope our answers we clear more these points. I need go to work now!
solstag: delphine: Austin: I think we can produce a list of procedures, and argue why they will effect responsibility, instead of a set of names of responsible individuals, which is a dynamically evolving set. The only formal list of people are the admins for the chapter wiki, which are bound by the process to be responsible or be quitted.
TSB_: aie-meeting: thanks.
everton137: hugs and see you!
aie-meeting: == end meeting==